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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 8:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

Morning Noise -

Without trying to hijack the forum for non-Dead discussion (while also understanding that it happens) let me cherry pick one item from your post that I have been studying intensely for the past 6 years.

There is no more oil. All the oil that there is to discover has been discovered. Advances in extraction technology are great - until you understand that the energy return on that extraction is less than 1.0. Shale oil extraction technology exists and is functioning but it takes 1.3 bbls worth of oil energy to extract 1 bbl of shale oil. That is fucking insane.

I would respectfully suggest that you google "Peak Oil" and start reading. There is a great discussion in the "Crash Course" put together by a friend of mine - Dr. Chris Martenson - on his website, http://www.chrismartenson.com/

I apologize to all members of the forum for this blatant push of another website here, but I feel strongly enough about this that I am willing to recognize the hypocrisy of me doing so.

And you're right - I should have voted for Ron Paul too. It's time "We the People" took back our government from the professional politicians who have everything but our interests in mind.

And while we're at it, let's end the Federal Reserve or at least push to have HR 1207 "Federal Reserve Transparency Act" eneacted into law. It's time we kicked those cockroaches to the curb.

Damn, I'm sorry for my departure from my usually detached and dispassionate demeanor.

I am done - Will Tell may hide the soap box from me now.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 11, 2009 9:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Democracy in action. Charges pending.

I would if I could, but having slipped off it a number of times lately, it was stolen!

Can you believe it? Right out from under the Prime Ministers big fat ass! And now it seems to be circulating wildly, available whenever and wherever any poster needs it.

Anyhow, we all like to do it, so I wouldn't give it another thought. As long as it represents an occas diversion, it's the spice of life, right?

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Aug 11, 2009 10:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Democracy in action. Charges pending.

The forum resounds to the sound of precariously-perching posters grinding axes on Tell's Soapbox.


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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Shale oil...

A 2005 estimate set the total world resources of oil shale at 411 gigatons — enough to yield 2.8 to 3.3 trillion barrelsof shale oil.

This exceeds the world's proven conventional oil reserves, estimated at 1.317 trillion barrels, as of 1 January 2007.

The largest deposits in the world occur in the United States in the Green River Formation, which covers portions of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming; about 70% of this resource lies on land owned or managed by the United States federal government.

Deposits in the United States constitute 62% of world resources; together, the United States, Russia and Brazil account for 86% of the world's resources in terms of shale-oil content.

These figures remain tentative, with exploration or analysis of several deposits still outstanding.

Professor Alan R. Carroll of University of Wisconsin-Madison regards the Upper Permian lacustrine oil-shale deposits of northwest China, absent from previous global oil shale assessments, as comparable in size to the Green River Formation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale

And this might be outdated but:

ANWR is estimated to contain 10.4 billion barrels of recoverable oil, according to the Energy Information Administration.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

'ANWR is estimated to contain 10.4 billion barrels of recoverable oil, according to the Energy Information Administration.'

About enough to keep the US going for 16 months. Worth destroying a wilderness to buy a year and change? And then what?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 2:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Hopefully that will be long enough to invent light without heat and put barfbag/diaper recycling units on the cows. I know someone here who would volunteer for the fittings.

But seriously...

I doubt it would "destroy" the whole area. We have come a long way with angled drilling and exploration and it would be another year of energy.

Then there's natural gas, clean coal, nuclear, the greedy bastards buying and burying patents we never heard of...

The thing about oil that baffles me is that it's totally organic, like coal. It's not like it's synthetic like plastic (which ironically is made from oil which is made from dead animals). It's all carbon. It's all terrestrial. It's already made and in the ground.

Have the dinosaurs died in vain?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

I hear ya Noise, but you only have half the equation.

Energy Return On Investment (EROI) is the linch pin here. You need 1.3 bbls worth of energy to extract 1 bbl of shale oil. That is a negative production rate and is unsustainable.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

We could use nuclear power, which is greener than oil or coal. Use it to extract the oil, or use it to replace the oil. I just want me some oil.... I'll squeeze the rocks by hand... gimme some gottdam oil!

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Take a big Mamma 's advice,and invent something smarter than nuclear gigs if you want something left for the kiddies!!!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Sure coal ash is much better. That takes years to die from.

Just don't roll in or eat U238/U235 and you will be fine.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Aug 11, 2009 2:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

lol :)


and you are right about the shale oil ratio. got a friend who is an engineer for a big oil firm in texas - he said dont hold your breath for the shale unless you want to be spending $10 a gallon for gas.


(i'll be back in a bit - gotta go snort some coal ash)

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 12, 2009 2:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Oil "cvilisation" stinks on the street,and it hurts my breathing ,na !

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Historically,it is already known that the main problem on this planet is the incapacity of men to take accout what was is said to them.They'd sooner drop dead definitly back into the big Nothing/nowhere for ever rather than accept opinions others than their headtrips!!!As for the waters,oceans are plenty around,and there are some advanced know how to take the salt out ,without adding to the pollutions .

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 2:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Desalinization is not advanced or in enough supply to use because of the concentrations of mercury that are building up in the sea water. (pulled this out of my ass truthfully)

Other than Israe, I do not know any country working on or implementing any substantial use or research in it. I do know there are plenty gallons of fresh water frozen at the poles, if only we could think of a way to heat the planet and melt it...

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Poster: skies Date: Sep 5, 2009 2:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Noise Collector found oil to squeeze so too busy to talk back ?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Perhaps the 4 Horsemen of the Barackalypse will Nationalize the Nuclear industry as well and staff it with retired submariners?

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Poster: Edsel Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

"You need 1.3 bbls worth of energy to extract 1 bbl of shale oil"

For the sake of discussion, I will assume your numbers are accurate, but they are today's numbers, and are likely to change over time..... I would hope the ratio falls in the future, and the process becomes feasable.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Unfortunately Edsel, the ratio won't likely fall ever. The denominator is getting smaller faster than the numerator. Energy Return is the only way to look at it accurately. Pro-drillers conveniently exclude the energy cost to extract the kajillion bbls of dead fat dinosaurs and trees when they are shopping their numbers around.

The simple fact is we are consuming a finite resource unabatedly. Eventually that model breaks.

Start here: (But go back and watch the entire Crash Course)

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-17a-peak-oil

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 5:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Reading this now actually. Thanks.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 5:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Noise -

As you might guess, I have become a bit passionate about Crash Course. Let me know what you think, but let's take it off the forum.

mandojamr@yahoo.com

Anytime. I'm really interested in what you think about Chris' work.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 11, 2009 6:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Mando-

Just FYI I had the pleasure of interviewing Chris a couple years ago...incredibly smart guy & explains a complicated issue in as straightforward a manner as possible. Glad to hear you're into his work!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 12, 2009 8:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Grendel -

How cool. I always enjoy the small world connections. Chris and Becca are amazing people, as are their kids. Back in April my wife organized a Crash Course seminar out in SW Virginia in the Shenandoah Mountains. We had 63 people show up to learn from Chris and Becca. Great stuff.

If you interviewed him a couple a years back, you may not have seen the complete version of the Crash Course. I would encourage you to check it out.

Any chance you could provide a copy of the interview - I'd really be interested to hear what he was saying back then. I've only been onboard the Martenson train for a year now.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 12, 2009 8:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

I'll do my best to track it down for you...it was something I did freelance for Christian Science Monitor and have no idea if it's archived anywhere. (btw, i'm not a Christian Scientist...I always have to point that out when i mention I did some work for them; their international news coverage is second to none)....Will also check on the latest research...The whole oil/shale oil question is a really interesting one, but what is so important to remember is that--as you and Chris pointed out--it always takes energy to extract energy...or, as I think he reminded me at the time: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sometimes the simplest laws of physics are the ones we tend to forget.

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 12, 2009 10:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbits and your undrilled oil

Not a convincing argument .You can walk forever and never get anywhere with it ,that's about the only opposite you get ,except when and if IT comes to meet you and send you on elastics cosmic pransters rides,just for the fun or the heck of it . Reasonable wisdom has been on vacations for quite a long time here and it's about TIMES to gig on !

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 11, 2009 11:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

Don't worry too much ,there is allways a bunch of smarties to invent new stuff and other handy solutions . Even if I don't really like the dudes on this planet, I admit some of them are quite smart .Those who invented cars,airplanes,telephones,computers, and Grateful Dead souds and scenes are fairly well noted in the cormic books of Times!!!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

I lied, I'm not done...

Perhaps -

But that does not do anything to resolve the incontrovertible fact that THERE IS NO MORE OIL.

Our society - the World - has done everything on the back of fossil fuel energy sources. For years the world enjoyed an excess of energy resources. That excess became one of two things - either prosperity or growth. Prosperity results when one would maintain their consumption levels, thus fixing their resource requirement, and converting excess resource into "stuff". Growth results from conversion of excess resources to a new higher level of consumption. Think of it this way - a family of four, Mom Dad, 2 kids, living on 50K a year. Mom or Dad gets a raise allowing one of two things, either a higher standard of living (prosperity) or another kid (growth). But not both.

The same with our fossil fuel energy consumption. The resources are fixed - there is no more. Every country in the world has based their model on unlimited resources for both growth AND prosperity. You can't have both.

And once the "unlimited" resource is gone, you can't have either.

We are staring at an oncoming cataclysmic event and we don't even know enough to do anything about it except run out and buy a freakin' Prius.

I'll say this - it is going to happen in my lifetime and I am thrilled to be witness to it's unfolding.

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

Maybe .But as I can't solve problems for 7 billions people ,here ,I rather hear Grateful Dead live sounds ,and what's coming next Iam not responsable about it ,concerning this planet ,I was not there since genesis!

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

I'll stick with my bicycle & sailboat when the oil is all gone. Not quite sure how exactly I'll heat the old house though. It is a little disconcerting.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Aug 11, 2009 2:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

i plan on buying me some cows and centrally heating my house with methane gas burnoff. hope to get a good filter to deal with the stench though :)

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 2:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

Just breathe deep and it will go away quicker.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Aug 11, 2009 3:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

hmmmm, that just may be the right idea

:)

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

In Hawaii,there is not much worry about heating and there are no mosquitoes !

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

Sailing takes me away....

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 11, 2009 3:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

Cartman!

Greatest version of this song every...Jgl or elb linked up the utube version once...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 4:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

Thanks for putting in your two pence earlier when cyrano de bergerac and Mr 72-74 were giving me lip.

I was going to refer to queen's bicycle but that sounds like a sex toy and is farther away from the dead than the easy listening soothing sounds of Christopher cross.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 12:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit! (more non dead political hijacking)

True, but there is an even more precious resourse that will cause even greater global strife than the oil supply running out and that is the potable water supply.

Do you think RP running again in 2012? I know his kid is running in 2010. I think a lot of disgruntled people are left from the last election to increased support this time around. Now that his predictions about the economy came true and people start to realize the other "republicans" and the democrats are all full of crap.

I admit, I chuckled at him during the debates, but I was the fool in retrospect.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit! (more non dead political hijacking)

Noise -

I feel like such a dumb ass for doing the same. Imagine me, someone who took an Oath to support and defend the Constitution, ridiculing someone calling for a return to a Constitutional government?

With all seriousness and humility,

Shame on me.

If he runs, Ron Paul has my vote in '12.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Aug 11, 2009 1:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit! (more non dead political hijacking)

Hopefully we are not the only ones... maybe it ain't too late.

Barnes and noble had the constitution, articles of confed and dec of ind. combined in a hardbound on discount rack for $4.98 along with Common Sense by thomas paine for $5.98...

Best $11 I ever spent. Reading them now.

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 12, 2009 2:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit! (more non dead political hijacking)

Beetween what they say in writings and what they do in facts ,ther is enough space to get nowhere with it ! Live G.D.music transcend boring spaces when it's about time with a little help from my friends .

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 11, 2009 7:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit! (more non dead political hijacking)

The amazing thing is that they are not long, and really easy to read.

Everyone should.

I have a little paperback version and it is slim and trim; along with my Strunk and White, two very important small books...

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Poster: skies Date: Aug 11, 2009 11:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: You wascily wabbit!

If I had been american I would have voted for RALPH NADER !